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Concentrationcamps are back !

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Dutch Josh View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 Aug 2024 at 1:18am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_camp or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_camp ;

concentration camp is a form of internment camp for confining political prisoners or politically targeted demographics, such as members of national or minority ethnic groups, on the grounds of state security, or for exploitation or punishment.[1]

 Prominent examples of historic concentration camps include the British confinement of non-combatants during the Second Boer War, the mass internment of Japanese-American citizens by the US during the Second World War, the Nazi concentration camps, which later morphed into extermination camps, and the Soviet labour camps or gulag.[1]

DJ, the definition of "contration camp" is not that easy. Refugee, POW-camps (US civil war) may see high excess deaths often linked to logistic/weather issues. Also lack of hygiene-spread of diseases can result in a high number of deaths. 

Maybe the dividing line has to be the goal of the camp. Is the goal to keep control over refugees, Prisoners Of War or to kill them ? 

A "camp" can be in the open air-not even tents-but it also can be in "good modern buildings"....

From the wiki page;
The term "concentration camp" and "internment camp" are used to refer to a variety of systems that greatly differ in their severity, mortality rate, and architecture; their defining characteristic is that inmates are held outside the rule of law.[2] Extermination camps or death camps, whose primary purpose is killing, are also imprecisely referred to as "concentration camps".[3]
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The American Heritage Dictionary defines the term concentration camp as: "A camp where persons are confined, usually without hearings and typically under harsh conditions, often as a result of their membership in a group which the government has identified as dangerous or undesirable."[4]
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Although the first example of civilian internment may date as far back as the 1830s,[5] the English term concentration camp was first used in order to refer to the reconcentration camps (Spanish:reconcentrados) which were set up by the Spanish military in Cuba during the Ten Years' War (1868–1878).[6][7] The label was applied yet again to camps set up by the United States during the Philippine–American War (1899–1902).[8] And expanded usage of the concentration camp label continued, when the British set up camps during the Second Boer War (1899–1902) in South Africa for interning Boers during the same time period.[6][9] The German Empire also established concentration camps during the Herero and Namaqua genocide (1904–1907); the death rate of these camps was 45 per cent, twice that of the British camps.[10]

Lack of legal procedures may be part of the difference-however nazi-germany often did see "legal procedures" to send (groups of) people to camps...Also the Soviet Union, US, UK, NL, Belgium, France did "create a legal basis" for -often- mass murder...

Depending on the definition one could claim "concentration camps" go far back in human history. Pre-Roman societies may have used POW's as slaves in mines...Is a slave-ship a floating concentration camp ? One has to answer that question with a "yes"....

Based on the color of their skin groups of people were concentrated and transported without any legal procedures other than allowing slave trade...Part of the "plan/justification" was "non-christians have no soul so they are animals"...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2024 at 1:31am
DJ, The USrael mass murder of Palestinians is a crime in many ways. 

The Gaza-genocide reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francoist_concentration_camps or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francoist_concentration_camps 

The German-in English translated page https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konzentrationslager_im_franquistischen_Spanien or https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konzentrationslager_im_franquistischen_Spanien ;
In Spain, during the early days of the Franco dictatorship from 1936 to 1947 , there were numerous concentration camps ( Spanish : Campo de concentración ), in which almost half a million Republican fighters of the Spanish Civil War , refugees and opponents of the regime were imprisoned. [1] The exact number of concentration camps is still unclear. According to the status of the documentation in 2024, one must assume that there were well over 300 camps and camp-like facilities. [2]
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Mass shootings

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During the Spanish Civil War and in the years following the conflict, around 192,000 prisoners were shot. During the period from 1939 to 1940, hundreds of prisoners were executed per day at their peak. [9] Several mass graves were discovered on the grounds of concentration camps. The laborious excavation and identification of the victims has now begun, including in Burgos. A total of 30,000 bodies are said to be lying in mass graves.

Forced labor

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Section of the Canal de los presos built by forced labourers in Peñaflor (Seville)

In addition to ideological "re-education" measures, the prisoners were subjected to a brutal regime of forced labor and were organized into battalions for this purpose. The aim was not only to rebuild the infrastructure destroyed by the Spanish Civil War by building railway lines, dams and reservoirs, but also to demonstrate state power aimed at subjugating, humiliating and physically destroying political opponents by using forced labor to build prestige projects such as the Francoist memorial Valle de los Caídos .

A large number of prisoners were also used in the construction of the Canal del Bajo Guadalquivir from 1940 until its completion in 1962. In 2006, the section between La Rinconada and Dos Hermanas was given the name Canal de los Presos ("Canal of the Prisoners") in memory of the victims of the canal's construction .

Child abduction

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The children of Republicans were often separated from their families and handed over to the care of the Catholic Church. Current research speaks of 30,000 such cases of politically motivated child abduction. [10]

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https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2021/11/08/franco-concentration-camp-with-mass-graves-nearby-to-be-rebuilt-as-information-centre-on-spains-costa-blanca/ or https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2021/11/08/franco-concentration-camp-with-mass-graves-nearby-to-be-rebuilt-as-information-centre-on-spains-costa-blanca/ ;

ALBATERA’S concentration camp, discovered only in 2020, is to become an information and interpretation centre.

One of the derelict barrack buildings at the site will be rebuilt and used as the centre, for visitors to learn of the horrors that happened.

The main part of the camp, an enclave measuring only 500 square yards, reportedly kept 16,000 prisoners captive during six months of 1939, at the end of The Spanish Civil War.

They were Republican government officials, military staff, journalists, trade unionists and artists who were captured in the port of Alicante by Franco’s marauding fascist forces as they tried to escape Spain on the ship, Stanbrook.

Prisoners were believed to have been kept outside in the blistering Spanish sun, with hardly any food or drink.

DJ, In Gaza over 2 million Palestinians for over 8 months are on the run inside a limited area with daily bombardments by USrael/NATO. 

The Lancet study https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext or https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext ; In recent conflicts, such indirect deaths range from three to 15 times the number of direct deaths. Applying a conservative estimate of four indirect deaths per one direct death to the 37 396 deaths reported, it is not implausible to estimate that up to 186 000 or even more deaths could be attributable to the current conflict in Gaza.

 Using the 2022 Gaza Strip population estimate of 2 375 259, this would translate to 7·9% of the total population in the Gaza Strip. 

A report from Feb 7, 2024, at the time when the direct death toll was 28 000, estimated that without a ceasefire there would be between 58 260 deaths (without an epidemic or escalation) and 85 750 deaths (if both occurred) by Aug 6, 2024.

DJ, Part of this "open air concentration camp" -with most buildings destroyed-is the summer heat...Witholding food/water/medication...

The clear goal by USrael politicians is to "get rid of sub humans/terrorists"....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2024 at 1:45am
DJ-The level of crime in concentration(like)camps was very different. Even under nazi-terror some camps did see laborers as "of use" -at least for some time....

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-united-states-and-the-holocaust-why-auschwitz-was-not-bombed or https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-united-states-and-the-holocaust-why-auschwitz-was-not-bombed (DJ-To put it wider-why mass murder can go on-with lots of people knowing it...). 

During the spring of 1944, the Allies received more explicit information about the process of mass murder by gassing carried out at Auschwitz-Birkenau. On some days as many as 10,000 people were murdered in its gas chambers. In desperation, Jewish organizations made various proposals to halt the extermination process and rescue Europe's remaining Jews. A few Jewish leaders called for the bombing of the Auschwitz gas chambers; others opposed it. Like some Allied officials, both sides feared the death toll or the German propaganda that might exploit any bombing of the camp's prisoners. No one was certain of the results.

Even after Anglo-American air forces developed the capacity to hit targets in Silesia (where the Auschwitz complex was located) in July 1944, US authorities decided not to bomb Auschwitz. American officials explained this decision in part with a technical argument that their aircraft did not have the capacity to conduct air raids on such targets with sufficient accuracy, and in part with a strategic argument that the Allies were committed to bombing exclusively military targets in order to win the war as quickly as possible.

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In subsequent decades, the Allied decision not to bomb the gas chambers in or the rail lines leading to Auschwitz-Birkenau has been a source of sometimes bitter debate. Proponents of bombing continue to argue that such an action, while it might have killed some prisoners, could have slowed the killing operations and perhaps ultimately saved lives.

DJ...Is there an obligation to intervene when a country is doing a very major crime ? 

In the past a "R2P" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect ;

The responsibility to protect (R2P or RtoP) is a global political commitment which was endorsed by the United Nations General Assembly at the 2005 World Summit in order to address its four key concerns to prevent genocidewar crimesethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity.[1][2] The doctrine is regarded as a unanimous and well-established international norm over the past two decades.[3]

The principle of the responsibility to protect is based upon the underlying premise that sovereignty entails a responsibility to protect all populations from mass atrocity crimes and human rights violations.[4][5][6] The principle is based on a respect for the norms and principles of international law, especially the underlying principles of law relating to sovereignty, peace and security, human rights, and armed conflict.[7][8] The R2P has three pillars:

  1. Pillar I: The protection responsibilities of the state – "Each individual state has the responsibility to protect its population from genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing, and crimes against humanity"
  2. Pillar II: International assistance and capacity-building – States pledge to assist each other in their protection responsibilities
  3. Pillar III: Timely and decisive collective response – If any state is "manifestly failing" in its protection responsibilities, then states should take collective action to protect the population.[9][10]

While there is agreement among states about the responsibility to protect, there is persistent contestation about the applicability of the third pillar in practice.[9] The responsibility to protect provides a framework for employing measures that already exist (i.e., mediation, early warning mechanisms, economic sanctions, and chapter VII powers) to prevent atrocity crimes and to protect civilians from their occurrence. The authority to employ the use of force under the framework of the responsibility to protect rests solely with United Nations Security Council and is considered a measure of last resort.[11]


DJ, So there has to be a sort of UN acceptance for intervention...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect#Libya,_2011 or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect#Libya,_2011 ;

A few days later, acting on the resolution, NATO planes started striking at Gaddafi's forces.[61] NATO subsequently came under scrutiny for its behavior during the air strikes; concerns included the fact that the intervention quickly moved to regime-change and that there were allegations regarding aerial bombardments that may have caused civilian casualties.[62]

"it has become a political game"; R2P used by NATO for regime change operations...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2024 at 2:01am
DJ, During World War Two the first goals were to win the war...that would also limit the number of deaths in concentration camps. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sde_Teiman_detention_camp or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sde_Teiman_detention_camp ;

Sde Teiman (Hebrewשדה תימן) is an Israeli military base located in the Negev desert near the border with the Gaza Strip. During the Israel–Hamas war, its use as a detention camp doubled and gained international attention for its systemic human rights violations against its Palestinian detainees from the strip.[1][2]

Multiple released Palestinian detainees have testified they were subjected to psychological and physical torture as well as sexual violence by Israeli soldiers. Multiple reports also speak of prisoners who suffered from medical neglect for injuries sustained, which led to cases of arm and leg amputations. Their testimonies have been corroborated by whistleblowing Israeli staff and a CNN investigation.[1]

In one highly publicized incident, leaked CCTV footage showed Israeli soldiers gang raping a Palestinian detainee with a metal rod that caused him serious injuries to his anus and lungs.[3][4][5] The leak occurred few weeks after several soldiers suspected of the abuse of a prisoner were detained for questioning, leading to Israeli right-wing protesters and parliamentarians illegally breaking into the camp in protest in late July 2024.[6]


DJ, One of the reasons why "countries in conflict with USrael" may not stop this Negev camp may be USrael simply would open another camp. Very likely kill the prisoners and blame it on the enemy/attackers...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_1391 or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_1391 ;
Camp 1391, also referred to as Unit 1391[1] or Facility 1391,[2] is an Israel Defense Forces prison camp in northern Israel for "high-risk" prisoners.[3] It is run by Unit 504.[1] The existence of the prison was unknown to the public before 2003, and most information about it remains classified, although the Supreme Court of Israel ordered the release of some information about the jail.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_1391#Conditions or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_1391#Conditions ;

Referred to by some as "the Israeli Guantanamo",[7][8][9] Camp 1391 was kept secret in such a manner as to be even unknown to David Libai, Minister of Justice in Yitzhak Rabin's government and member of the secret services related ministerial committee.[8] According to Leah Tsemel, an Israeli lawyer who specialises in advising Palestinians, "Anyone entering the prison can be made to disappear, potentially forever, it's no different from the jails run by tinpot South American dictators."[7]

According to accounts of former captives, the detainees were led into the facility blindfolded, and kept in cells (most are 2 m × 2 m) with no natural light. Two smaller cells (1.25 m × 1.25 m) with heavy steel doors and black or red walls, and almost no light, were used for solitary confinement. Some of the cells did not have adequate toilet facilities and the guards controlled the running water.[8] A former inmate described to al-Araby al-Jadeed his mistreatment in 1391 after being transferred from Huwarra military camp, including extended isolation from other inmates, suffocation during sleep, interrogation period extending beyond 24 hours and extreme lack of food.[6]

Mustafa Dirani, an Amal commander[10] who was captured by the Israelis in May 1994 and released in 2004 as part of a prisoner swap,[11] has filed a suit in Tel Aviv's district court claiming he was sexually abused in the prison.[8] It has been acknowledged by the government of Israel that "within the framework of a military police investigation the suspicion arose that an interrogator who questioned the complainant threatened to perform a sexual act on the complainant".[4]

Inmates were not allowed visits at the facility from the Red Cross, nor were any other independent organization permitted to inspect the site.[9] The prisoners were not told where they were, nor were their families or lawyers.[8]

DJ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_concentration_camp#History or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_concentration_camp#History ;

The concentration camp at Dachau was opened 22 March 1933, with the arrival of about 200 prisoners from Stadelheim Prison in Munich and the Landsberg fortress (where Hitler had written Mein Kampf during his imprisonment).[28] Himmler announced in the Münchner Neueste Nachrichten newspaper that the camp could hold up to 5,000 people, and described it as "the first concentration camp for political prisoners" to be used to restore calm to Germany.[29] It became the first regular concentration camp established by the coalition government of the National Socialist German Worker's Party (Nazi Party) and the German National People's Party (dissolved on 6 July 1933).

Jehovah's Witnesseshomosexuals and emigrants were sent to Dachau after the 1935 passage of the Nuremberg Laws which institutionalized racial discrimination.[30] In early 1937, the SS, using prisoner labor, initiated construction of a large complex capable of holding 6,000 prisoners. The construction was officially completed in mid-August 1938.[16] More political opponents, and over 11,000 German and Austrian Jews were sent to the camp after the annexation of Austria and the Sudetenland in 1938. Sinti and Roma in the hundreds were sent to the camp in 1939, and over 13,000 prisoners were sent to the camp from Poland in 1940.[30][31] Representatives of the International Committee of the Red Cross inspected the camp in 1935 and 1938 and documented the harsh conditions.[32]


The "west" did know of Dachau KZ from the start...and did not see any problem with it...
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